© Illustration by Chris MacDonald

“Okay so what the hell do you want to talk about you f*ck?”

So starts my interview with the completely politically correct and clean-mouthed, Mario Cantone. Most known for his iconic role as Anthony in “Sex & The City,” Mario is one of the funniest entertainers in the world, a Tony-Award nominated, and celebrated actor/comedian with a full resume of t.v., film and theatre credits. He and I met five years ago while working on the New Group’s off-Broadway premier of “Steve,” and I am very fortunate to continue to call him a dear friend. I wanted to talk about his career, reflect on important life moments, and hear his opinions on the industry. 

Let’s start with the heavy stuff. Our list of memories are plentiful, and mostly serendipitous and fun, like crashing a wedding and getting sh*tfaced on frozen Negronis.

“We were roofied!” 

Oh man, no question. But some of the sharpest moments that stick out center around loss, because that is how our friendship started. You and I connected over our mutual connection to the late, great, Taylor Negron. He was one of my father’s closest and oldest friends, and a dear friend of yours too. From that day on, you took me under your wing.

“Yes. I sure did.”

You have faced some devastating losses in the recent years. I will also never forget the somber November night of 2016 when Hillary lost the election and we were at the live taping of “The View” for your performance. Then not too much later, the completely devastating and unfair loss of your amazing sister Marion. These are some pillar moments I can think of, how have you found strength from such trying times? 

“I have been through a lot of death in my life. I lost my mother when I was twenty-one, my father when I was thirty-six, my aunt when I was twenty-three. She was my favorite–Aunt Josephine. And you just have to go to the wake, the funeral. You gotta do it, you have to show up. I certainly was very sad about any loss, but the older you get…not the easier it gets … but it’s expected. You just have to keep going forward.”

“Now if I lost my husband, I don’t know what I’d do. That would be… I better go first. I am not dealing with that. And you work to distract yourself from it. Well, you try to work at least. I am the laziest man in show business so I don’t work that much, but when you work, you shift into that mindset.”

“But yeah… loss sucks. You just have to deal with it.” 

I really admire your strength with it though, for how much you have dealt with. 

“Sometimes I think is it strength or just denial? You have to grow tough skin, and be a little apathetic.” 

You grew up with tough skin in your household no? 

“I would think so, my mother was completely, emotionally unavailable. She was not happy about the fact that I was gay so that was tough. So I had to deal with that, and I got bullied in school, you know, for being gay. And I was gay, gay!” 

Dancing and singing show tunes on your kitchen table right? 

“Oh yes! You know what is so funny, now that the ‘gay thing’ and ‘drag thing’ is so ‘in’ now, I watched some old stand up of mine on Youtube, and I thought ‘I don’t even come off that gay.’ Comparative to what is today. They used to call me a ‘flaming fag’ I even lost a gig on Johnny Carson because I was ‘too gay.’” 

Such a different time. 

Next question, I have been juggling a good deal with the dark mindset that can be ‘expectations.’ I wonder how, as a recognized persona, have you found ways to navigate your own hopes or aspirations in order to constantly fulfill the expectation of what people want from you? 

“I have always brought my own thing. Don’t forget I was doing mainstream comedy clubs back in the 80s and 90s and headlining Carolines. These were not gay clubs, they were commercial stand-up clubs and I was pretty much “out of the closet” publicly by the early 90s. I never lied about it, but they certainly should have known if I was doing impressions of Bette Davis.” 

Would you say your whole life you have been categorized? 

“Oh yeah, pigeon-holed. As good as your stand-up is, that is who you are.” 

And there is no reason over the course of your career you couldn’t play the mobster, or the “straight role.” 

“Well I did, when I did Robert Redford’s Quiz Show. It’s just one scene–a tough Italian Brooklyn guy–and I thought I would work forever from that. But once they know you are gay, you don’t get the work. If you were publicly out, you did sacrifice at least half to three-quarters of your work.” 

Even now, 2020, would you say you are still categorized? 

“Oh yeah, absolutely. You get the girls who love Sex & City and they expect Anthony, but I am giving you who I am.” 

What was something in life that took you a long time to learn? 

“Thank god I am not relevant, they come after the relevant. But I guess… I guess it took me a while to learn to not respond to the negative Facebook and Twitter comments. Learning to let that die on the vine. I used to read every single review I got– like examining your medical records– every little thing. It took me a while to not let myself get so affected by reviews and opinions. Jerry taught me how to not be a jealous person, especially about career stuff.”

(Jerry Dixon: actor, writer, director, artistic director of Village Theater, and Mario’s partner of 30 years.) 

I don’t think anybody except those who really know you, know just how much of a fascination you have for cinematic history. I find it completely amazing, your immense repertoire, rolodex, and encyclopedic mental capacity for the history of cinema, television and, of course, all things Disney. Have you always been like that?

“Yeah always. When I was a kid, seven years old, I used to take my tape recorder to the movie theatre and tape Snoopy Come Home and Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.” 

To watch it at home? 

“No! Audio tape, you couldn’t video it. I am old, it was my cassette player, press record and play.” 

Oh hahaha. But how do you do know so much? 

“Well it is my job.”

Not at seven years old.

“Look, I have worked with a lot of ‘kids’ in film and t.v., not actual kids, but younger actors, even some in their thirties and forties and they were not good with the history of Broadway or old movie stars. With these ‘kids’ it’s like walking around with an audience that you bomb with constantly. They don’t get any of the references. But shame on them for not knowing! They should know. This generation, your generation, they do not know their history. I think it is unbelievable. It’s the generation of a lot of narcissism, a lot of ‘me’ ‘me’ ‘me’ - Instagram, the social media. They all want to be famous.”

“You know Jane Fonda says ‘it’s better to be interested than be interesting’ and the fact that you don’t ask questions with people who are older than you, says something. There is no interest.” 

I would agree that it is this generation, but it is also this time we are living in. 

“Oh sure it’s this too.” 

Grabbing his phone.

“If I had come up in this time I might have been sucked up into this not knowing anything else, and that is not good.” 

Still gripping his phone. 

“I even know my history of gay pornstars, I know it all!” 

Moving on! What is your career highlight so far? Your one-man Broadway show “Laugh Whore”? 

“Yeah it was exhausting. It was definitely everything though. Great reviews, nominated for a Tony award, my opening night was at the Rainbow Room. It was an amazing thing.”

Is there a career goal you still hope to achieve? 

“I got one foot in the grave and one on the banana peel. I’m sixty! I would like to do some more movies. I would love a series, but do I want to be in burning and shaking COVID California? - no! I love animated movies. I have given up on the Oscar though. I have been nominated for a TONY and that’s enough - I’m good!” 

Do you get comfort knowing that you have entertained and made millions laugh over the years? 

“Yeah I do. You forget about it until you get an email saying stuff like ‘my mother is sick and you just made her laugh and helped her forget it for an hour. That’s the stuff that hits me. Even today I did a Cameo for a guy whose wife is going through cancer treatment and they were all laughing and crying tears of joy cause I really get into the videos.” 

So special, I am sure you get into them. We used to spend hours recording home auditions for you, and you always deliver. 

I am curious, in this day and age with so many celebrities and comedians getting exposed for wrongdoings, do you think it is going to have an effect on comedy? 

“Oh yeah, thank god I am not coming up today. The audiences were much smarter in the 70s and 80s. Now they will come after you for anything. I used to host the kid show called Steampipe Alley and we had a game called Find Sammy Davis’ Eye in The Pie where I was Sammy Davis and the kids had to find my eye in the pie. And someone posted the clip on Twitter recently and it was really funny and one guy said ‘look at you, so funny everything and the black face.’ I called him out immediately and said: ‘sir there was absolutely no black face! I did it in regular makeup with an eye patch. I had to clarify. You just have to be careful what you say.”

It seems people can get away with saying anything and there is no repercussions.

“Oh yeah you are guilty until proven innocent. That’s just the way it is now. Go back to the McMartin Trial. Yes there are many accusations that are true, but there are many that are not.”  

How do you think the industry will change post-Trump? So many people have made a living just off of his presidency.

“Oh I know I can’t wait to see what is going to happen. So many people did and I never did that. You know I always thought that Trump was elected president because of Bravo, and Ryan Seacrest and all those reality show producers. I think they’ve dumbed down this country with those shows with people who were mouthy, tipping tables, saying whatever the hell they wanted to say - all that sh*t. And half of this country that is so f*cking stupid couldn’t turn away from this ‘car crash’ because that is what they were attracted to. And of course too, the underlying systemic racism that has just been here forever.” 

Do you have hope for the future? 

“I would love to know, why don’t you call me from the grave.” 

Oh c’mon now. Staying dark though, what is your biggest fear? 

“Death, sickness, and losing Jerry.” 

What about some of your biggest joys in life? 

“Watching a great film or piece of theatre. Food, and my husband Jerry. That’s it. Sex. Food. Porn.” 

The title of this article should be “Mario Cantone: a simple man with simple fears and pleasures - just wanting to get by like everyone else.”

“Mhm, it’s true. I don’t want to be a big star. I don’t think I ever wanted to be. I think I thought I did but the fact I didn’t become one, I think I subconsciously didn’t want it. I see all the shit that comes at you. I want a comfortable level of fame and I got exactly what I wanted. I can get into the restaurant I want. I can go see a show I want. I am a beggar that’s choosy.” 

So no regrets? 

“Not in show business, but in life I do and we will not be getting into them!” 

Do you have a favorite quote or life motto? 

“I can buy the hooker but I can’t be one.” 

Who’s quote is that? 

“Mine. That’s going on my gravestone!”

Well it is always just the best to catch up, and shoot the sh*t with you my friend. I am ending these conversations with the same question: what is one thing you wish more people knew?

“About me?”

However you would like to answer it. 

“Well I wish more people knew about the level of racism they have within their hearts so that they could fix it, and learn from it, and work on it. Cause everybody’s got it.”

“I also wish these producers would know that the ‘followers’ and ‘likes’ are bullshit. Producers are getting younger and younger and they care about it but it should mean nothing. It is like having more money so you can pay for NYU instead of getting the really talented student who needs the scholarship. Stuff like that is going away slowly.” 

I couldn’t agree more. Now I am curious though, how would you answer it for yourself? 

“I want people to know that I climbed my way to the middle, stayed there, and I am really, really good with it.” 

I’m glad you are, you should be proud. There is nobody I know who has stayed so true to themselves. Love you Mario. 

–

By Chris MacDonald

Edited by Conor Golden

The Chico Club is a collective of reflections, ideas, and dialogues - shared with a purpose. The goal is to open our minds, hearts, and conversations, and embrace that we are all “still learning.”  

© Illustration by Chris MacDonald

For this conversation, I invited my aunt and uncle Diane Rostant and Michael Llach. Both are Licensed Marriage and Family Therapists (LMFTs) with nearly 30 years working in the field, 20 of those years working with the giant health provider, Kaiser Permanente. Living and working in one of the country’s most diverse and sizable communities, San Fernando Valley, California, they have heard it all. 

I wanted to learn how the global pandemic and current political environment were shaping psychotherapeutic practices and conversations. I could not stop imagining the realities of married therapists now executing their work from the comfort of their home. 

I quickly found out that what sounded like a brilliant plot for the next Yasmina Reza play, naturally didn’t last long.

Michael: “Well we worked together in the same house for about three days, and it was awkward. It was really bad. Two people in the house doing therapy in different rooms.”

I can imagine! So then what do your days look like? 

Diane: “I am working from home around 36 hours a week. I see about seven patients a day, back to back to back. And there aren’t any ‘no shows’ with the online structure, there are often some ‘no shows’ in person, so right now it is even more exhausting.” 

Michael: “I went back to the office, and I see my patients through the phone, video, and a handful of them in person. I am doing seven to nine sessions a day. And there’s a transition in therapy that’s occurred with this pandemic, in how people go to therapy, because therapy is now in their home. People present themselves much differently. I kinda like the ‘old way’ where people came to my office, they got ready to see Michael, presented themselves, and they showed up - ”

Diane: “They were dressed.” 

For context, it is important to picture the joyful spirits that are Michael and Diane. They are both former theatre practitioners, always smiling, joking, and laughing with and at each other. Our conversation was no different. 

Diane: “I have a hard time when I am working from home and Michael is home. I feel weird. I don’t want him to hear me, hear the session, because it is such an intimate, private thing. Even though it is Michael, having someone in the same house feels not right.” 

Michael: “When the pandemic first started, I was doing my sessions from home for about three or four weeks and just what you described was not good for me.”

I shared my realization regarding the power of a commute. Up until the pandemic, I was able to bike to and from the office, and didn’t realize until recently how much of a release that time served as. Being able to exhale work responsibilities before entering the comfort of my home was really instrumental for my mental sanity.  

Michael: “Yeah it’s like the patient’s juju was in the house and I did not like having those problems in my living space. I think it’s interesting– the idea of the commute–because for me it’s only about 15 minutes but they are 15 minutes I really look forward to. Crank up the stereo, Van Morrison my brain out and it creates a buffer.” 

Did you find anything that worked for you in those days that you were home?

Michael: “I just toughed it out. It really was just toughing it out. I was so unhappy having to do work in my house I realized.”

Diane: “It’s interesting, people are amazingly attune to how they are being attuned to. On the phone they can sense if you are not ‘there,’ completely present and that is the exhausting part of the job. You have to be totally one hundred percent with them, the second you veer off they know it.” 

Michael: “That is why you come home from work and just watch America’s Got Talent. It is not flexible for us, we are working harder than ever. This is the hardest I have worked in my whole career.” 

Roughly how many patients are you seeing a week? 

Michael: “About thirty five.” 

So your rolodex is a pretty consistent 100 patients a month floating in your active repertoire? 

Michael & Diane: “Yeah.”

Diane: “Some of my patients are currently waiting about three weeks (to see me).” 

Are you finding patients can still be as vulnerable and honest when they are now having their sessions from home? 

Michael: “I have noticed that one of the challenges in the new ways of working … those moments, on a given day, where normally there would be a number of times where something happens, where you know somebody got a little deeper insight about themselves, I find that it is happening less.”

Diane: “I have mixed feelings. At first during this pandemic, a lot of the anxious clients were doing great, they loved it. “They were like ‘I don’t have to go out’ ‘I don’t have to be in social situations.’ ‘This is the calmest I have ever been.’ Now they are getting anxious with it going back to normal. And then there is the other kind of client who is really having a rough time, I mean really having a rough time. Very anxious, more depressed.” 

Michael: “Anger, fear, and anxiety seem to be dominating.” 

Diane: “A lot of fear, but I have people who in a way are disclosing more which is interesting. Maybe because they feel safe in their own home, and not seeing me, just on the phone.”

I know it is mostly confidential, but can we speak roughly on the clients you are working with. How many of them are new, long-time, and/or seeking help as a result of the pandemic and everything taking place? 

Michael: “In a given week, I have about five new patients. I would say 50 percent over the course of a month are there because they are overwhelmed by COVID restrictions and pressures. There is another thing that has become more and more of a problem that the political environment in the United States has become a clinical problem.” 

Diane: “Huge. Anxiety, fear.”

Michael: “I have worked long enough to know that every election cycle is bad, but this time it has been continuous since 2016, and now it is reaching new levels. I have a good amount of conservatives on my caseload and they are as wound up as liberals are. I have had people talking about environmental stress, worried about that now too.” 

Diane: “Over and over I hear the word ‘uncertainty.’ People are having a really tough time, and they just want some certainty in their life.” 

And what is the advice there?

Diane: “I start with more behavioral day-to-day. You do have control over how your day is going to go. What would that look like for you to feel good? Getting out of bed, making your bed, going for a walk, simple things sometimes, but people just haven’t thought of it.” 

Michael: “I also push people to acknowledge where they have control. Just because they don’t have control over something doesn’t mean they should be unaware, but they should also not let themselves be defined by what they can’t control.” 

Diane: “This is all of course after first validating their feelings, acknowledging that what they are going through sucks. And then, encourage and help them to find the control.” 

Michael: “Yeah, help them see value in what they do.” 

I am currently trying to learn how to not take everything to heart, nor allow my energy to be absorbed by so many outlets. Living in a time of information overload, endless questions, fears, doubts, and aspirations, it is easy to get lost. How can one find clarity, are there clues we can pick up on that you use in your practice? 

Michael: “I spent a decade doing addiction work. I am quite familiar with the process, challenges, and facets relating to drugs and compulsions. Within that there are relationships impacted by a person’s behavior. (A hypothetical example) a woman right now who is teaching from home now (lots of teachers are struggling) and she is just home so much more. She comes (into my office) as a teacher stressed out as a result of COVID. She is finding herself feeling less capable as a teacher than she did in the classroom. And in exploring that in my direction of the dialogue, because that is really what a lot of therapy is, asking the questions to get them to the realization. So here she is at home, feeling insecure about her teaching all of a sudden, but really her husband is a bit of a drinker who likes his six pack or more every night, and he gets belligerent telling her ‘she is a dumbshit and lazy.’ So now she is teaching in a place where she is a ‘dumbshit and lazy.’ What was happening is that at work she felt free, but at home is locked into a codependent relationship. So for me, it was getting her to see that maybe she is carrying her home and marriage attitude in her teaching.” 

So most of the work is pinpointing the stress and source of the problem?

Michael: “I think it’s being able to say out loud what is in the back of their minds. It is not even that we say anything so profound it’s just saying something out loud and somebody else saying it to you.” 

Diane: “When I feel like my patient and I aren’t getting anywhere, I start asking questions more focused on their childhood and the roles and relationships in their childhood, that is when stuff becomes moments of ‘wow, ‘I see.’ Invariably, I swear, it always goes back, it’s just human. It’s weird when somebody  says it out loud, for a lot of people it gives them an ‘oh my god’ moment and then it gives them freedom to have more choice. ‘Do I want to react like this?’ ‘Let me look at my options,’ - it’s really, can we go back to the present?”

I like the concept of going back to the present. Therapy seems to always be projecting fears of the future or reflecting on the past. 

Diane: “Totally. Absolutely.” 

Trying to find presentness. I am sure that is why an hour of therapy is so valuable. 

Diane: “Yes and we try to bring them to the present through mindfulness, and breath, and it can be pretty powerful.” 

Is there advice for anyone to practice if they do not have the ability to seek professional help? 

Diane: “We do recommend people develop a routine. Writing can also be very helpful for people.” 

Michael: “Yeah positive psychology does a variation of a ‘gratitude list’ and at the end of the day rather than making a ‘to do’ list for tomorrow, end your day acknowledging what went right. It doesn’t have to be a whole journal, it can be simply a list, saying things like “I finally finished folding the laundry in the dryer, finished my taxes, and I had a conversation with my sister.” It has been found over and over again that one of the major curative factors for depression is being able to experience gratitude and demonstrate it in some way. Just doing that can be a tremendous help at an emotional level.” 

Diane: “You want to shift their focus, they are so focused on the negative.” 

Michael: “Also, I’d say upwards of 60 percent of new patients with depression and anxiety, if they just improve their exercise and sleep, the symptoms diminish and become instantly much more manageable. There are so many people sleeping six and a half hours and less.” 

Diane: “All of our patients, it is across the board.”

Michael: “People are working so hard, people are really struggling. So much on the mind just to get by.” 

Has the number of people with sleep anxiety increased?

Michael: “It’s gone up, definitely in the last five years. You know, I just read an article with a National Geographic study about the average sleep pattern in 1920, and the average sleep for an adult then was nine hours. And then the media came in, and all these distractions, and the sleep number has been diminishing ever since. It’s interesting.” 

I have one or two more questions, is that okay? 

Diane: “Sure, this has been fun! We talk about our patients together all day long, but we never talk about the process for ourselves.” 

Human psychological growth and evolution is a fascinating, endless conversation. I am curious to know if practice has evolved over the course of your career? Because fundamentally I feel that humans themselves have not changed much, the key feelings of depression, fear, jealousy, will never change.  

Diane: “It’s always the same. Love, heartbreak, togetherness, autonomy. But it never gets boring. It is always fascinating. Often we (as therapists) are just normalizing feelings like ‘who wouldn’t feel anxious right now?’ We try not to pathologize. A lot of times, in this society, people pathologize a lot. They want to snap on a diagnosis when it is just human.” 

I couldn’t agree more. I laugh about it because recently, my sister and I had a stretch of nights where if we would feel any remote sensation in our bodies that may be a symptom of COVID we would wake up in a deep sweat, mind semi-seriously made up that we have the virus. Even before this pandemic gripped us all, society has been obsessed with the instant diagnosing and pathologizing of anything. We have no patience with the unknown, nor with ourselves. We resort to labeling everything, and holding on to uncertain answers when the answer is simply that we are experiencing normal, human feelings. 

Diane: “Like with grief, people will feel like there is something wrong if they cry too much, or cry too long, or cry too little - and no, it’s just being a human being.” 

What is one thing you wish more people knew?

Diane: “I do wish people knew that everyone makes sense once you hear their story. The angry guy makes sense, the bitchy older woman makes sense, the “lost” person makes sense, the woman who sleeps with one guy then on to the next makes sense, and so on. And, you have some version of love for them all because you understand why they are who they are.”

Michael: “I wish more people knew and had confidence in their own internal goodness. In the course of my work, I have had heart to heart conversations with over 10,000 people, and of those there are maybe a half dozen who are bad people. You get to hear about them and you are able to tap into something fundamentally right and honest and they do not know it. I wish more people had greater faith in that part of themselves.” 

Diane: “I also wish more people knew how alike we all are. There is nothing more prominent in therapy and it could almost make me cry right now, but how much we all have in common. I am talking about the 90 year old and the 18 year old. There is basic human experience. We are all connected, we are, we really truly are. I met with a homeless woman the other day and I find I have stuff in common with her. We are all connected, we are really not so different. We are all struggling.”

–

By Chris MacDonald

Edited by Conor Golden

The Chico Club is a collective of reflections, ideas, and dialogues - shared with a purpose. The goal is to open our minds, hearts, and conversations, and embrace that we are all “still learning.”  

© Illustration by Chris MacDonald

Award-winning director, actor, writer, singer, educator, mentor, husband, and tremendous friend, Jerry Dixon is currently in his third year as the Artistic Director of Village Theatre in the Seattle Metropolitan area. Village Theatre is a major regional theatre producing a five-show mainstage season serving 20,000 collective subscribers, and additionally housing a youth education program which serves over 57,000 young people, families and schools annually. It is also the “home-theatre” and employer for hundreds of people year-round. 

Jerry Dixon was undoubtedly the first person I wanted to check-in on to learn how the current state of the world is shaping the role and responsibility of the theatre and its practitioners going forward.

I am very fortunate to have known Jerry for five years now, and always find myself completely captivated by his wisdom, incomparable calmness, and brilliant perspective, both inside and outside of the theater. With so much to dive-in on, Jerry started our conversation: 

“One of the first questions you get from your friends right now is ‘how are you doing, coping with the boredom?’”

He chuckled. 

“I am coping with a lot of things, but boredom is not one of them. I have never been so busy in my entire life!”

I jumped right-in asking: with the theatre and stage always having been a place to inspire, entertain, and educate, how are you seeing this dictate the plan going forward considering the year we are having?

“Even though live theatre is in it’s pause, the reconstruction of what we want the theatre to be when we open the doors and start producing again has begun, and a lot of it started with our response to COVID and how we would open our doors safely, and that was hard enough. Then in the middle of all that, we get our social unrest crisis. I think we had no idea how much it would exacerbate the COVID recovery, by calling into question what it would mean to be a theatre maker. The cultural crisis really shed a light on the fact that we all have much, much much work to do.”

“As a leader of a theater you realize you don’t speak for yourself. So I am often careful of what I say. But now, it was also a combination of really feeling fearful of even my very life, my very existence as a black man in America, it comes back at you. My mother said, “don’t ever forget who you are, and what you look like. It doesn’t matter what your station becomes, the United States is still a dangerous place for a black man.’ I have had instances where I have definitely felt that, but there are also times where I have allowed my position and my privilege to allow me to forget that for a second, and I’ve let my guard down.”

“So, back to my theater. With my artistic team, we have been in the process of restructuring what we want the theatre to look like when it opens next year. What will it feel like when an actor walks in the door? Will they feel any change? Will a crew member still see people who don’t look like them? Will the orchestra pit be any more integrated? Because, it never has been. We are crafting a version of the theatre that we want to work in. We are going to build a version of theatre that we think people could thrive in, and if we were all gone, at least we would leave the theatre in better shape than we found it. My resident music director put it really well saying: “This is really cool. If this place was reduced to rubble, and someone found our plan, they would know how to build the ideal theatre.” That is how clear, intentional, and deliberate we are being in our reconstruction.” 

I know when you first entered the position the goal was to bring the Village a TONY, has that goal changed? 

“No, no. Because the thing is… This aspirational restructuring idea is about building a greater*, better, place. I am very much into being a company of fulfillment, and if that means a TONY that’s great, that’s a piece of the fulfillment. But, more than anything, your achievement of that award is happening because you are doing all the things right. And not just the execution of the stage-art.”

*Jerry initially was playing with the word “safe” and then offered his opinion on the word choice: 

“Safe is a word that is thrown around, and it’s ‘okay’ but frankly it’s a low bar. I think theaters should all be safe, but they should also be places where you can be bold and brave and audacious and ‘go out on a limb’ with your art. So, you have to build a space where voices can be heard, and bodies can bring their ‘whole-selves’ to work without feeling in-danger of being unseen.” 

Your position and voice is really an important one for many reasons – being a black, gay, artist, director and, on top of it all, the face of a theatre company in 2020. Does it ever feel like many different hats? 

“It doesn’t feel like a lot of different things, there’s a commonality in all of it. Even if I am doing twelve different things, the pillars don’t change. Most of us go to the theatre because we crave community, and as we grow up, we wonder if community can actually become our livelihoods. The new thing for me… I just identified two months ago… I recognized… I have never had, or held, a position. Prior to this (position), I have always been project based. For the first time in my entire life, I am part of a continual community.” 

From this point in our conversation, Jerry and I elaborated extensively on the importance, impact and power of having a community. Like Jerry, for many of us it can be co-workers, friends, family, or a combination of it all. We were highlighting the essentials of what it takes for a like-minded group of individuals, generally working towards a common goal, to move forward when addressing issues or realities as a unit. This is also while addressing room for improvement and chances to learn from within as well. 

For Jerry, he referenced his immediate team of about twelve administrative and staff members of Village Theatre, for which he meets with on a weekly basis. Jerry told me of how the pandemic and nationwide unrest over racial injustice has shaped their conversations, tactics, transparency, and the company’s response both internally and externally. He recounted an earlier meeting they had during the Spring, addressing the Black Lives Matter movement and how they would find ways to be better as a company. Jerry elaborated on one of the early meetings and how he posed the question:

“‘Are we going to have this conversation? If we are going to have this conversation, we are going to have this conversation.’ They responded with. ‘Do you want to have this conversation? To which I responded, ‘I would say no.’ Somebody asked ‘Why?’ And I said, ‘I am no longer going to be the good negro. Because we are now in the see something, say something world, so raise your hand if you want me to tell you a truth.’” 

He tells me that only one of the twelve team members raised his hand – a  resident music director, volunteering to learn about his previous faults. Jerry recounted a time in auditions for an R&B musical. A white actress sang the musical number exactly as she had prepared, was thanked, and left. Only to be followed by a black actress, who sang her musical number as she prepared - using her own melodies, vocal choices and style. 

This resident music director then asked the black actress if she could present a version in ‘legit’ singing, a style of singing that embraces a more classical vocal approach. The double-standard was blatant. However, Jerry commended the team member for his bravery to listen, reflect, accept, and be the only one willing to volunteer to hear of ways he could improve. Jerry continued:

“We can’t write each other off and think of each other as pages and chapters. Take the whole f*cking book. This cancel culture, and unforgiveness – I don’t believe in that. I believe you have to allow that people will make mistakes, but you also have to allow yourself to forgive them and move on. You have to reserve some of that grace for yourself, cause we are all going to f*ck up.” 

“These are the things that are going to get us to the things we want. If we do to the foundational stuff, we will get to the great productions and awards. Those will be byproducts of our really great work at the foundational, pillar, and communal level: knowing who we are.” 

In theatre, which has always been so proud and/or reliant on the “classics,” how do we progress as a society juggling both an appreciation of the historical works, but keeping our feet pointed forward?

“Well we (at Village Theatre) are mostly a musical theatre company, meaning, most of the shows we put on are from the ‘American musical theatre canon’ which, for the most part, is a very white, Eurocentric basis.” 

“So, let’s say if the lead character in a musical is about a guy who’s biggest problem is the fact that his girlfriend left him in a karaoke bar. You could cast that as anybody, but as soon as you cast that as a young black fella, it becomes almost laughable that that would be his largest problem while living as a black man in America. There are so many layers of obstacles that he has to go through in his daily life, that are so much bigger. And you could have that character played by a black actor, as long as you weave that into the fabric. What happens though, almost always, is that we get shoehorned in, and we just have to play the character as written, and you recognize right off, this is a white character.” 

“When a person, who the part was obviously not written for, lands that part, what do we do? What we don’t do is ignore that it does matter. You can’t go in blindly thinking that it does not matter.”

“There are ways to direct a role in which you can agree upon some investment of that person’s whole self. That they (the actor) can bring so much of who they are, even if it is a classic role, or a role you know intentionally was not written for them. There are things that you don’t have to ignore about who the actor is. 

“Again it is all about the intentionality, and sitting down and being frank, saying: ‘this character was obviously not written for you but now what do we do with this since we think you are the best actor for this role? How do we bring you into this role where you feel seen and heard?’”

“It’s about not putting the responsibility on the artist to ask those questions and bring those ideas in. It is your responsibility as the director, artistic director, producer. Don’t let your silence make it harder on the person who is already on the outskirts or marginalized. If we, as directors, want to take on that leadership role, we have to be willing to take on the responsibility of leading those conversations, not just having them. And do them with much more intention, and much more love and compassion for the people doing it.”

“On that note, what I don’t want to happen is for a white structure to put the Shakespearean actor up as ‘the bar’ for what a great actor is. Why is an August Wilson actor worth any less value than a Shakespearean actor?”

Your perspective and personal experiences are really interesting since you have been on all three sides of a production now as an actor, director, and company leader. Can you tell me a little bit about your personal experience dealing with racism and inequality in the industry as an actor?

“Well I was super fortunate to do back-to-back Broadway shows (Once on This Island in 1990 & Five Guys Named Moe in 1992) and both of the creative teams were diverse, so my naive self thought that was how it was. Once on This Island had an Argentinian director/choreographer, the percussion designer was Brazilian, the costume designer was black, the lighting designer was black, the scenic designer was Filipino, we had two black stage managers, the wardrobe supervisor, and just generally surrounded by women and people of color. And then for Five Guys Named Moe it was the same. Clarke Peters, who created the show for himself, is black, and our director/choreographer, musical supervisor, vocal arranger were all black, and a couple of our stage managers!” 

“Then cut to the 2017 Broadway revival of Once on This Island and you find one person on the creative team – the choreographer – who is black, and that’s it. All of the major bases - white. It was an interesting thing to move out of the hands of a diverse team and into other hands. I never saw it, and I was not judging the art of it all. I was just judging the lack of diversity on the creative team.”

“It was interesting that something in the 90’s that was so diverse became so not diverse. But, sometimes little glimmers of hope happen… And two African artists are going to create the film (of Once on This Island) for Disney+, both from the continent of Africa and both women, so I think that’s really great.” 

“I had also done three different regional versions of Dreamgirls in the 90s, and, for the most part they were not terribly diverse, but there were some. So then, comes the (Broadway) revival from London (2015) and I go to audition, and there are sixteen people behind the table, and not one of them is black, and I’m thinking to myself, ‘what does this even mean at this point in the United States?’ I thought it was very interesting.” 

“It’s really really hard, especially if you are doing tough material, race-wise, and you have to constantly negotiate how you talk about that in front of white leadership. I can’t talk for their experience of Scottsboro Boys (2010) but just looking at that team, that all-white team, and these black boys and men have to talk about what it means to them to do this work that is so wrought with pain, and black pain specifically, and have all of the leadership be white. Especially year in and year out, and you think about the Broadway revival of The Color Purple and the Broadway revival of Ragtime and the Broadway revival of Once on This Island and it keeps happening, and keeps happening. What is going on? Why isn’t it getting better?” 

And the talent is there. 

“The talent is there.” 

I want to end our conversation with one last question, what is something you wish more people knew? 

“I wish people knew more about each other’s experiences; and I don’t mean what happened to me, but like, what does your day, week, month, year look like? To have these conversations, not necessarily with a friend, but I mean how curious are we and how much time do we allow ourselves to do that with each other.” 

Jerry explained to me that as his team and theatre got deeper and deeper in the addressing of establishing their role as an anti-racist, progressive, and inclusive space and workplace, the executives decided that the initially suggested idea of bringing in EDI (Equity, Diversion, and Inclusivity) consultants/experts, would be the most appropriate and responsible choice. Jerry told me about one of the consultants who they hired; a black man, and an incredibly well-versed expert on the realities of race in America. Jerry highlighted that this man’s whole principle and strategy is addressing it all from the lens of culture and not race. Jerry elaborated:  

“If you learn someone’s culture you learn who they are, and it gets very very very difficult to be anti-against them, because you’ve learned something richer about them. You identified something that people don’t take the time to do. They see color and think ‘let’s be black and white friends’ as opposed to: what’s your culture, how did you grow up, what did you eat, what music did you listen to, what movies did you see, what sports did you like or hate?” 

“Go into the culture, and sit down and talk about culture. Don’t start with race. The culture will bring you to the race questions every single time. The race questions automatically puts up walls, where the culture one automatically gives you an ‘in’ because you talk about things that are like-minded, even though you don’t look anything alike. It’s the longer way around it, but it has a better chance of succeeding and also sustaining itself. It’s really easy to put on the ‘honeymoon phase’ version of anti-racism, of ‘let’s get along, and hire the right quota of people and we can look like we are an EDI society,’ But we will not have gotten very far in understanding each other, and understanding each other takes time.” 

“We are finding more and more that everybody wants to have these conversations, but our timing was really sh*tty. It’s not enough. I mean Zoom is great, but we need to be able to touch, and look at body language, and smell each other, and all those things that human contact allows. Hopefully we will come out of this cherishing those things, and wanting to know more about people.”

–

By Chris MacDonald

The Chico Club is a collective of reflections, ideas, and dialogues - shared with a purpose. The goal is to open our minds, hearts, and conversations, and embrace that we are all “still learning.”